the soul or self after death; getting from the etheric plane to the astral plane; chucking it all to follow your own quest of self discovery and enlightenment; substance abuse and spending an entire life with addictions; learning by experiencing
December 11, 2001 (workshop log file)

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Session Start: Tue Dec 11 16:32:20 2001
*** Now talking in #energyworks
<Hermes`> hello everyone
<Attuned3> hi
<Florian> hi :)
<Hermes`> did everyone get quiet because I came in? continue on
<psyke_ie> hi Hermes` :)
<psyke_ie> long time no see
<Hermes`> yea
<Attuned3> hey Hermes did you know you can get paid for meditating? :)
<psyke_ie> Hermes`: may I ask your advice?
<Hermes`> sure
<fooki> hermes would you mind explaining the structure of soul.. like.. not all of it is in one human body, right? where is the rest of it usually?
<psyke_ie> do you know any effective ways to shift from the physical mirror/etheric plane to an astral plane, or at least the structure leading to them?
<Hermes`> fook, it depends on what you mean by soul? are you referring to the part of you that survive death? Or are you referring to that mystical Soul with a capital 's'.
<Hermes`> psyche, what are you trying to do?
<psyke_ie> Hermes`: when I project I'm always in the physical mirror (I call it real-time zone)
<psyke_ie> I want to start exploring the astral planes proper
<fooki> no, not the Soul, but like the part that survives after the death.. like I have understood that it's not all there is in a being. like the soul should be like bigger or something
<Hermes`> well the astral plane is an emotional plane. To go there you will need have some emotional push behind you.
<psyke_ie> ok, so I need to "will" myself up
<Hermes`> on the etheric plane you explore very earthly things. OBE's on this plane are very physical like.
<Hermes`> on the astral plane you will experience things like desire, anger, the lower form of love, pain, joy
<Hermes`> so if you want an astral plane experience you need to want to experience some feeling, emotion or desire.
<Hermes`> this energy will pull you on to the astral plane where you will engage in some kind of drama.
<Hermes`> fook, the term soul is used often to talk about your self outside of time and space. Your spirit without a body.
<Hermes`> this soul, is you without the time and space restrictions
<Hermes`> it is no more or less than who you are now
<Hermes`> you may have at your disposal memories of past lives in this form, but it is still the you that you know
<fooki> ok, thanks
<Hermes`> psyche, so really what you need to do is just desire something, walk through a wall or door and with luck you will be there
<Hermes`> astral plane encounters are less physical like
<Hermes`> you bring back more of the feeling of an astral plane encounter and less of the things that went on.
<Hermes`> attuned I did go to that game page you sent (
<Hermes`> I did not get far in my adventure because I took the dangerous path and he does not have that one completed.
<Attuned3> the same one I did then
<Hermes`> However I did like what I saw with it. It is a very novel way of showing how life will keep at you to evolve and grow
<Attuned3> what do you think about the text on the first page?
<Attuned3> about leaving security behind and just go
<Attuned3> and all that
<Trinity2> The road less traveled :)
<Hermes`> well I did all that already
<Hermes`> so I am familiar with the great potential and dangers of such a path
<Hermes`> in my 20's I just chucked it all and went on my personal quest of discovery.
<Hermes`> left family, friends, it all behind
<Hermes`> so yea I can relate to that road quite a bit
<fooki> what did you do then if you leaved your family, friends, etc. behind? started traveling?
<Hermes`> well I lived on my own, at poverty level for the most part. Kept to myself and focused on my spiritual studies and evolving myself, my writing.
<Hermes`> money and things just were not important, neither were people, during that time
<Hermes`> what was important was the quest, the journey of myself into myself
<Hermes`> it was very rewarding, but it is a difficult and lonely path
<Trinity2> Did you have any apprehension about doing that I am at that point in my life right now but nervous about it which brings doubt
<Hermes`> well I always looked back to what I left behind
<Hermes`> and still to to some degree
<Hermes`> I do not regret the decision but
<Hermes`> had I known what the path would bring before hand, I most likely would not of taken it.
<Hermes`> only because at that point in my life I would not have thought I would have the courage and strength of will to face all those challenges that path brings
<Hermes`> I think everyone needs to do it at some point and to some degree
<Hermes`> it really does clear out all the garbage inside
<Trinity2> I know it will be difficult but I feel it is necessary at least for me to grow, I know I will regret it if I do not
<Hermes`> well then you must do it
<Hermes`> and you will do fine
<Trinity2> Its like a calling a most, a yearning, yet it will be hard to leave behind a family and friends that care about me that makes it very hard
<fooki> can't you do it with keeping relations to family & friends?
<Hermes`> well you can try, the problem is the path requires you to focus on yourself, and make sacrifices.
<Trinity2> I suppose but its like I am not getting what I 'need' from them, I need to move on and meet new people, its not a total severing of ties by any means but a great lessening for sure
<Hermes`> most likely your family and friends will not understand you at all during this time
<Trinity2> I know it will change me, oh see you got it that's what I mean things will change
<Hermes`> after the transformation you can again rejoin family and friends
<Hermes`> once you have discovered yourself
<Hermes`> and there is no chance of it getting lost again.
<Trinity2> Yes and I think I will be a much better, and complete, person for it
<Attuned3> but what about fallowing my path makes my family sad and concerned, what to do about that?
<Attuned3> doesn't them being concerned also un-help me
<Hermes`> well my family was very concerned about me.
<Hermes`> but I continued on. It was necessary, I knew at the time that they could not understand.
<Hermes`> and they always wanted me to give up the path
<Hermes`> not realizing just what they were asking me to do
<fooki> how did they relate when you "came back"?
<Attuned3> did it change, when and how?
<Hermes`> They do understand now, better than they did then
<Hermes`> of course I live what they call a more "normal" life now
<Hermes`> but they know that there is that part of me that will always be untouchable
<Hermes`> and that one day, I could just off and go
<Hermes`> they have come to understand that this is my path in this life of self discovery and it may never be normal by their standards
<Hermes`> but realize it took years for them to come to this realization
<Trinity2> I've never understood why they, really all human beings, have not felt a yearning to follow the path as well, for me it is becoming a more and more powerful calling as the days go by
<Attuned3> did you try to explain them things so they understand maybe?
<Hermes`> there are so many things they will never understand because they have never done that sort of thing
<Hermes`> I did try, but they wanted what they wanted for me
<Hermes`> not what I wanted for me
<Hermes`> the only person that knows what is best for you is yourself
<Hermes`> otherwise you live everyone else's life
<Hermes`> they wanted me to live the life they had envisioned for me.
*** Attuned3 changes topic to 'the only person that knows what is best for you is yourself '
<Hermes`> I'm not saying this was not a good life, but it was not the one I needed in this life.
<jsn> say that to drug addict attuned
<Attuned3> what if they get not nice, and judge and say you don't care about them, that you're selfish, what to do then?
<Hermes`> you can't tell a drug addict what to do either
<Hermes`> he is free to live his life that way
<Hermes`> there are lessons there as well
<Hermes`> you would take that lesson from him, and he would not learn what it is he needs so badly to learn.
<Hermes`> he would be thrust into another life time of being addicted
<Hermes`> is it no better that he learn the lesson now in this life, so he does not have to repeat it in the next.
<jsn> yeah, and that's why drugs need to freed just like tobacco
<Hermes`> I do not agree with substance abuse at all, but you have to realize that even a drug addict is on a path of learning.
<Florian> hermes: till the bitter end ? I don't consider learning by dying very effective :)
<Hermes`> well it is effective if it teachers you not to repeat it
<Hermes`> you can't look at the development of your soul or other people's soul from one life time
<Hermes`> it takes many life times to learn these powerful lessons.
<Hermes`> and everyone is at a different place along the way
<Hermes`> you may have spent a life time or two being addicted and now you know the lesson
<Florian> well, I can, as my experience in this field didn't prove me something like reincarntation yet :)
<jsn> cant we consider that drug addicts who say they just want to use it, (even they're just doing it as they're addicted to it because the nature of the substance) now if someone helps them out of it, they will say it was good thing and thanks the person for it
<jsn> now, they reality create someone to help them anyway
<Hermes`> well of course it is hard to see the validity of such a life time if you only believe in one lifetime per person
<Hermes`> than there is no argument that will help you to understand a life spent on addiction
<Florian> Hermes` it's not about believes... in fact I DO believe in multiple lives, but I don't know :)
<Hermes`> jason, yes at the proper time you can help them out, but they have to be ready to be helped. You can not help an addict if he is not ready.
<Hermes`> many times the addiction has to take you to deaths door before such realizations occur.
<Hermes`> Well Florian, it is just that it is hard to explain away a life time of abuse from a one life perspective.
<Hermes`> it is much easier from a many life time perspective.
<Florian> Hermes` from a one-life perspective, it's a useless self-destructive action (in my opinion, certain drug users might view it differently), from a multi-life perspective there might be some sense in it...
<Hermes`> exactly
<Hermes`> that is all I am saying
<Hermes`> of course no one has proof of multiple life times
<Hermes`> I can say it is so, but there is no proof I can offer you.
<Hermes`> So our discussion is part theoretical
<Florian> I know, I was talking of *personal* proof
<Florian> :)
<Hermes`> the real point to all this is topic that Attuned put up on the channel.
<Hermes`> you can only judge your own life
<Hermes`> there is no way to know what another person is trying to learn or accomplish in his or her life
<Hermes`> even if that life seems self destructive
<Hermes`> of course help those that want help and that you can help
<Hermes`> as you never know when a soul is ready to change its pattern
<Hermes`> but understand that you can not help everyone and some people have to walk a certain path even though you may know where it leads.
<Hermes`> I have a cousin that is addicted to drugs. It is unfortunate. But he is unreachable for now. The path I see him on is hard, and even may have death in it
<Hermes`> but he may live past that point of hitting bottom.
<Hermes`> and if he does, then..
<Hermes`> he may be open to being helped, to changing his life.
<Hermes`> the lesson then would of been learned, so he can change
<Florian> interesting :) I think similar I about that, but this because I think that imposing one's will upon others is not right. I simply lack the metaphysical experience to accept the above as reason/truth behind it and not just as a theory/belief.
<Hermes`> well one day you will have your proof. It will come to you
<Florian> yes, I'm pretty positive about that :) whatever it may be :)
<Florian> Hermes` so you think all drug therapy where the patient doesn't want to be helped in the beginning is doomed to failure ?
<Hermes`> tough question to answer, as you never know when the individual will change
<Hermes`> I think at best you have to realize that you may not be able to help them now
<Hermes`> but perhaps down the road
<Hermes`> and help those that want the help
<Florian> I somehow believe, everyone COULD be helped, it's just a matter of effort...
<Hermes`> everyone can be helped, at the proper time
<Florian> the problem is that the personality has to be changed in a way that the part that's weak to addiction is changed , otherwise, no therapy will really succeed
<Hermes`> yes but life is the teacher of these things in many cases
<Hermes`> it is experience that changes the soul
<Hermes`> the addict has to experience the limitations of addiction
<Hermes`> Over time I have come to understand that you can not teach anyone anything. You can direct them, but it is their own personal experience that teaches them.
<fooki> haha agreed =D
<Florian> true
<fooki> sack all university professors =D
<Hermes`> :)
<fooki> no, really.. lectures are waste of time
<fooki> but </offtopic>
<Florian> depends on the professor I'd say :)
<jsn> that explains why some people like to hit their head to wall, you can tell them it hurts but they still do it
<Florian> lol
<Florian> gotta go, c'ya :)
<jsn> cya florian
<Hermes`> good one jason
<Attuned3> Hermes you didn't answer before: what if parents get not nice, and judge and say you don't care about them, that you're being selfish (for living not "normally"), what to do then?
<Hermes`> you ignore them
<Hermes`> what else can you do
<Hermes`> they are only trying to invoke the 'guilty' factor
<Hermes`> to get you to change your path
<Attuned3> yes, but they also do hurt
<Hermes`> yes but at some point you cannot live your life for your parents
<Hermes`> you can only live your own and hope they understand
<Hermes`> my family did hurt for sure at times, they only wanted the best for me.
<Hermes`> however they do understand now that that path was mine to follow
<Hermes`> that they were a bit too judgmental at times
<Hermes`> and perhaps I was a bit too distant too
<Hermes`> we both learned in the process
<Attuned3> thanks
<Attuned3> that helps
<Attuned3> see you all soon!
<Hermes`> okay have a good night
<jsn> I'll be out too.. night all
<Hermes`> okay night jason
*** Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Dec 11 18:50:28 2001

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