world trade center bombing; capitalism; terrorism
September 13, 2001 (workshop log file)

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23.49.44 Join fooki
23.54.39 Join iris1
23.59.40 # <fooki> hi =)
23.59.46 # <fooki> how are you?
23.59.57 # <iris1> I'm ok - and you?
23.59.59 # <fooki> ah =) there should be some sort of workshop tonight too =)
00.00.09 # <fooki> I'm hmm well.. like. I guess I am okay too
00.00.30 # <fooki> like I have some worries and have eaten far too much because of that
00.00.38 # <fooki> but in general everything is just fine
00.00.48 # <iris1> I thought they were going to have the workshop today
00.01.05 # <fooki> yes hermes should appear here tonight
00.01.09 # <iris1> It's not good to eat when we worry
00.01.19 # <fooki> I know =)
00.01.28 # <iris1> I spoke with him and thought he was coming today
00.01.54 # <fooki> yes I chatted with him yesterday and he told us then to come today again
00.02.11 # <iris1> humm
00.06.57 # <fooki> hehe, got a pic on the net? =)
00.07.28 # <iris1> no not yet - you?
00.07.50 # <fooki> well I do
00.09.07 # <fooki> there
00.09.10 # <fooki> those are old one
00.09.22 # <fooki> +s
00.13.07 # <iris1> ah, very nice pic - you look as I thought you would!
00.13.47 # <fooki> hehe =)
00.13.49 # <fooki> how come? =)
00.14.37 # <iris1> ?
00.15.48 # <fooki> you look as I thought you would!
00.15.50 # <fooki> that =)
00.18.28 # <iris1> ah, I try to picture what the members in the group look like when we meet for the workshop
00.18.58 # <fooki> hmm
00.19.00 # <fooki> okay
00.19.21 # <fooki> I couldn't =9
00.19.22 # <fooki> very precisely
00.24.16 # <iris1> It is just interesting to see how close what I think you look like is really to what you do look like
00.24.46 # <fooki> yes of course
00.25.00 # <fooki> oh gosh, I feel stuffed =/
00.28.11 # <fooki> how soon should the workshop start?
00.48.54 Join GargowL
00.49.00 # <iris1> I don't think the workshop will be today. It is already late
00.49.01 # <GargowL> hi there
00.49.07 # <iris1> Hi
00.49.56 # <iris1> How are you?
00.50.03 # <GargowL> fine, thanks
00.50.08 # <GargowL> and you?
00.50.37 # <iris1> good, thanks
00.51.25 # <GargowL> no workshop today?
00.55.09 # <iris1> I spoke with Hermes yesterday. I thought the workshop was on for today but he never showed up so I guess there is no workshop
00.56.03 # <fooki> he was just busy
00.56.05 # <fooki> or something
00.56.08 # <GargowL> seems so
00.56.09 # <fooki> (guess)
00.58.49 # <iris1> yeah, I guess so
00.59.28 # <fooki> iris where were you from?
01.05.00 # <iris1> NY
01.05.23 # <GargowL> ???
01.05.24 # <iris1> New York
01.05.45 # <GargowL> I thought NY's power had been cut off
01.05.45 # <GargowL> they said so on the news
01.06.19 # <iris1> No, we have power. Many Internet lines are down but I go through cable so I'm OK
01.06.33 # <GargowL> oh
01.06.34 # <GargowL> OK
01.06.51 # <iris1> Only the power at the site is out
01.07.19 # <iris1> I'm about 15 kilometers from there
01.07.35 # <fooki> can you smell the thing?
01.07.40 # <fooki> they said it smells like chemicals
01.08.15 # <iris1> Not too much yet but it is supposed to come this far. I can see it though
01.08.30 # <GargowL> the thing?
01.08.30 # <GargowL> what thing?
01.08.42 # <fooki> smoke and so on
01.08.44 # <iris1> It is very sad
01.09.01 # <fooki> indeed
01.09.39 # <fooki> just insane
01.09.39 # <fooki> were you at home when it happened?
01.09.39 # <iris1> See the smoke and it is so strange to see nothing where we used to see the towers
01.09.46 # <fooki> I bet..
01.09.56 # <iris1> I was at work, which is a little closer to where the towers were
01.10.18 # <fooki> I was at work too when it happened
01.10.47 # <fooki> didn't work for nine hours, just followed the events on the net (IRC, realstreams)
01.11.22 # <GargowL> I was killing some aliens at home when cyprus sent me a message on the mobile phone saying "the pentagon has been destroyed!"
01.11.42 # <iris1> we had no work yesterday because most roads and transportation was closed
01.11.45 # <GargowL> then I ran to the TV and saw the towers burning
01.12.35 # <fooki> Russians claimed that bin laden has 400 kamikazes
01.12.44 # <fooki> according to some TV channel
01.13.02 # <GargowL> I really can't believe someone was evil enough to do that :(
01.13.03 # <iris1> It would not surprise me
01.13.47 # <GargowL> I don't like America very much, and I think it should be "shaken up", but killing people to make a point is totally evil
01.14.10 # <GargowL> nobody has the right to take somebody else's life
01.14.24 # <iris1> It is so difficult to understand how people like that can do this
01.15.12 # <iris1> you are so right
01.15.46 # <fooki> but still there are 40000 children dying in malnutrition every day..
01.16.01 # <fooki> and nobody cares
01.16.09 # <GargowL> yeah, you got a point there
01.16.12 # <fooki> twisted world we live in
01.17.09 # <iris1> when you don't see it directly it is easy not to think about other people's suffering
01.17.09 # <fooki> true
01.17.26 # <fooki> but this illusion that we western country citizens have about our good life is just insane
01.17.40 # <fooki> like we just want to forget the real state of the world
01.17.46 # <fooki> and concentrate on ourselves
01.18.12 # <iris1> too true
01.19.08 # <fooki> like me myself COULD sell the extra stuff away that I don't REALLY need and start living more scientific life and therefore become a "true citizen of the world" but like that's hard thing to do
01.19.19 # <fooki> yet I should do it
01.19.27 # <fooki> to be fair and honest
01.19.58 # <fooki> scentic = ascetic
01.20.03 # <fooki> like simple lifestyle
01.21.19 # <iris1> yes, we get too concerned with things that perhaps are not all that important
01.22.39 # <iris1> but if each of us would just be sensitive to the needs of those people in our lives, if we just tried to help those we meet, the world would be a much better [place
01.24.49 # <fooki> well no one can change the world alone, but we may live as if everybody lived like one livedm the world would be happy place. At least we all can change one person - ourselves.
01.25.30 # <iris1> and that is what it would take
01.26.19 # <fooki> exactly
01.26.59 # <iris1> someday it will happen
01.29.04 # <fooki> that's why I don't like western culture. Be a good citizen: "be a good boy/girl - study hard at school - go to army, be ready to defend this (robbing)culture of your's and it's values, then have a career, earn a fortune and live wealthy happy old days with many grand children.. Like that is all just illusion. An illusion what is present only inside the borders of the country you live in.
01.29.52 # <fooki> that "safety" and "wealthiness"
01.30.28 # <fooki> the one who is rich has more than somebody else does
01.30.37 # <fooki> so being rich is kind of unfair
01.31.10 # <fooki> like the systems we westerns have are just something that hides that and creates illusion of a good life
01.32.50 # <iris1> I do think though that many people are realizing that the kind of life you describe is empty and they are searching for something more
01.34.02 # <iris1> something meaningful because money and wealth is cold and empty
01.34.27 # <fooki> I sure hope they get it
01.35.06 # <fooki> but still I have to admit. I like to own/use high tech toys that cost a lot of money =/
01.35.46 # <iris1> it is a slow process that takes lifetimes
01.36.14 # <fooki> probably yes
01.36.21 # <iris1> and that's OK - as long as the money and the "toys" don't become gods in our lives
01.36.42 # <fooki> wmm what do you mean by that?
01.37.57 # <iris1> in other words, some people spend their lives getting wealthy and hurt many others along the way...
01.38.11 # <fooki> hmm yes I see
01.38.54 # <iris1> but others can have things money can buy but still know that they aren't really important
01.39.17 # <fooki> but like I myself in kind of feel guilt just by owning some stuff. Like there is money attached to it. And like that money could be used to educate the poor people etc.
01.39.22 # <iris1> and they work to better themselves and those in their lives that they can help
01.40.53 # <iris1> yes, this is true
01.41.47 # <iris1> but because you bought that "toy" someone had a job - someone had to make it, and market it,
01.42.16 # <iris1> so in a sense you are helping someone else to put food on his table
01.43.54 # <fooki> we do make a lot of unnecessary things like deodorants, cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, military industry etc. if none of those things weren't fabricated, we would have more freetime to spend with our loved ones
01.44.51 # <iris1> absolutely - and probably be healthier, and have a cleaner earth
01.45.41 # <iris1> but I wonder how many people would really spend their time meaningfully anyway
01.46.22 # <fooki> and like capitalism causes one stupid thing: products are designed to last for a short time so that customers need to buy the products again. Technology would easily be able to make some products much more durable.
01.47.02 # <iris1> of course
01.48.00 # <GargowL> maybe the current state of the world economy will make some new technologies be released
01.48.06 # <fooki> btw. hermes had an interesting theory last night. Like that our genetic memory hasn't used to having all this automation around. We wouldn't need to work so hard anymore, but our instincts drives us to do it. Efficiency is valued higher than happiness.
01.48.15 # <GargowL> the petrol price has greatly increased, maybe soon we'll have a much cleaner power source
01.48.19 # <iris1> I think many things will change over the next few years
01.48.31 # <GargowL> and I believe that will change the world
01.48.44 # <iris1> agreed
01.49.03 # <fooki> gargowl you have a point, but unfortunately the petrol price has come down already
01.49.37 # <iris1> and I think Hermes is right there. We are programmed to work - we need to be busy doing something
01.49.54 # <fooki> yes to stay alive =)
01.50.17 # <iris1> =)
01.50.36 # <fooki> like he put it yesterday"if that caveman didn't hunt for food all day, we wouldn't exist" or something =)
01.50.36 # <GargowL> it has come down, but one day there will be no more petrol
01.50.43 # <fooki> GargowL very true
01.51.11 # <iris1> this is a place I get really angry - because we don't need the petrol
01.51.37 # <GargowL> yeah
01.51.37 # <fooki> like we really would need to help the poor countries to get their education systems going.. Like if there were more universities, sciences would advance faster
01.51.47 # <fooki> in the end it would be everybody's advantage
01.51.52 # <iris1> there are other ways to avoid using it but yes, there is a lot of money in petrol
01.51.58 # <fooki> to help the poor people
01.51.59 # <iris1> and a lot of control
01.51.59 # <GargowL> there is some technology that can make an almost infinite amount of energy from an ice cube
01.52.55 # <GargowL> if that technology was available for everyone the benefits would be great to the whole world
01.52.58 # <fooki> iris1 yes that's the downside of capitalism.. It has to slow down progress to maintain income
01.53.28 # <fooki> GargowL so true
01.53.39 # <iris1> because the powers in control
01.53.56 # <fooki> ..are the capitalistic ones =)
01.55.11 # <fooki> but like the people in the poor countries aren't doing anything productive at the moment. They are unable to advance the sciences and unable to help to solve the problems in the world we now have.
01.55.24 # <iris1> well, it's not going to change overnight
01.56.29 # <iris1> but someday they will advance and other people will come into this reality and be in their position and then those that have advanced have the responsibility to help the less fortunate
01.56.37 # <fooki> unfortunately I think that the western countries don't want the poor countries to develop as they fear that they couldn't rob raw materials from them anymore (gold, copper, uranium, etc.)
01.57.02 # <fooki> yes true
01.57.31 # <fooki> money is funny thing. In the end it's just something that you can use to persuade someone do something
01.57.42 # <fooki> money truly is power nowadays
01.57.47 # <fooki> in all means
01.58.02 # <iris1> it only has as much power as we give it
01.58.24 # <fooki> like the customer boycotts against bad companies etc.
01.58.24 # <fooki> iris1 very true
01.58.24 # <fooki> but currently it has tremendous power
01.58.30 # <fooki> in the world
01.58.39 # <fooki> it's kind of sick
01.58.53 # <fooki> everybody is just after the goods and luxuries
01.59.22 # <iris1> not me :)
01.59.34 # <fooki> there should be like "say no to money and fortune" movement =)
01.59.55 # <fooki> that would do volunteer work
02.00.01 # <fooki> and live simple life
02.00.01 # <fooki> but study etc. Be good citizens
02.00.39 # <iris1> I think there are many people like that
02.00.55 # <iris1> but they don't look to be noticed
02.01.02 # <fooki> they should organize and show example to get their voice heard
02.01.23 # <iris1> agreed
02.02.08 # <fooki> yes. Modesty is virtue tough. But too much silence is not that good. Like by being active and sharing you're looks on life would do much good
02.02.30 # <GargowL> the problem is that someone that does something like that is considered tiered
02.02.47 # <GargowL> and that makes social life hard
02.02.54 # <iris1> yes, and so perhaps we need to speak out a little louder
02.03.19 # <iris1> and not be so concerned with what other people think
02.03.26 # <fooki> GargowL yes you have a point. But no progress has ever been made without counter-arguments
02.03.48 # <fooki> you both have points
02.04.04 # <fooki> I think like the best solution would be the middle way
02.04.12 # <fooki> like a compromise of some sort
02.04.26 # <fooki> not to bee too extreme and strict with own ideology
02.04.32 # <fooki> then it would be easier to accept
02.04.55 # <iris1> yes
02.05.04 # <GargowL> the only way someone can make a point is by having lots of ppl doing the same, otherwise that person will be considered crazy
02.07.00 # <GargowL> together we can do anything
02.07.00 # <GargowL> but alone we are doomed to be cast out of society
02.07.00 # <fooki> like if the ideology would accept other people's lifestyle, and just to decide you're own style. That it would be up to the person what kind of live he would live. Like I mean that these good people would accept the traditional lifestyle as well and not doom it.
02.07.00 # <fooki> if you'd accept others then I suppose they'd accept you too
02.07.24 # <iris1> these are all things we are here to learn
02.07.24 # <fooki> if you wouldn't accept their lifestyle, then they would have hard time being you're friend (as they might have that voice inside them saying that he does have a point)
02.08.24 # <fooki> iris yes that's apparently the case
02.09.16 # <fooki> arrest at JFK airport of one person with fake pilot id confirmed on CNN.
02.09.29 # <fooki> so there seems to be more kamikazes
02.09.54 # <iris1> just heard it here too - I'm minutes away from there
02.11.32 # <GargowL> I think it probably doesn't do much difference for them to die now or in their country, since the us are probably going to blast them off the map
02.11.48 # <iris1> it's very eerie
02.12.29 # <iris1> we are all waiting to see what will happen
02.12.44 # <GargowL> yeah...
02.13.25 # <GargowL> I feel more sad for those who have died than for the people that will die if a big war starts now
02.13.36 # <GargowL> which is very likely to happen
02.13.36 # <GargowL> I mean
02.13.53 # <GargowL> all the countries are now against terrorism
02.14.07 # <GargowL> but if the us attacks the terrorists
02.19.32 # <GargowL> it will very likely make innocent victims
02.19.32 # <GargowL> and that may turn other countries against the us
02.19.32 # <GargowL> and I don't want to think what can happen next
02.19.32 # <iris1> It is so senseless that the innocent suffer
02.19.32 # <iris1> and I don't want to think what can happen next either
02.19.32 # <fooki> well of course it CAN happen. Something like Vietnam or gulf war
02.19.32 # <fooki> sequel to those
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